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I hoped that Rob’s injuries would require constant nursing and that he would spend the next 20 years being cared for by Ursula. A fitting punishment for both of them.
I have absolutely no qualifications in this area….
I didn’t think personality disorders were “treatable”. It is a way of thought rather than an illness. For him to change he would first have to accept that his way of thinking is socially unacceptable. He would need to be capable of looking at his own situation and taking responsibility for it. I do think people are redeemable but they have to be willing to be redeemed.“I hear the blues a-callin…”
Good question. Personality Disorders, one of which is Narcissistic Personality Disorder, while in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders (DSM-5, for 5th volume), are indeed different from other psychiatric illnesses such as Depressive, Anxiety, and Schizophrenic Disorders.
As defined by the American Psychiatric Association: “Personality disorders are a class of mental disorders characterized by enduring maladaptive patterns of behavior, cognition, and inner experience, exhibited across many contexts and deviating markedly from those accepted by the individual’s culture. These patterns develop early, are inflexible, and are associated with significant distress or disability.”
Personality Disorders are shaped primarily by a pattern of early negative parenting experiences; and probably a bit by genetics and temperament.
Personality Disorders are primarily treated by long term insight oriented and/or cognitive behavioral therapy, sometimes with the addition of medication to treat related mood or impulse control issues. Yes, they are very difficult to treat and requires a great deal of skill and patience on the part of the therapist. Have I had success in treating patients with Narcissistic Personality Disorder? Yes, but we’re talking a decade or more of therapy and much motivation on the art of the person. Have I have had failures? Yes, as well.
Rob’s degree of narcissism is very high, he has a large dollop of anti-social behavior as well, is insight is nil, and is motivation is non-existent. I’m not optimistic that he can change.
It reminds me of the professional joke: “How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?…One, but only if the bulb really wants to change.”
—————————————————————————————————-NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER:
Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder
The definition of NPD states that it comprises of a persistent manner of grandiosity, a continuous desire for admiration, along with a lack of empathy. It starts by early adulthood and occurs in a range of situations, as signified by the existence of any 5 of the next 9 standards (American Psychiatric Association, 2013):
A grandiose logic of self-importance
A fixation with fantasies of infinite success, control, brilliance, beauty, or idyllic love
A credence that he or she is extraordinary and exceptional and can only be understood by, or should connect with, other extraordinary or important people or institutions
A desire for unwarranted admiration
A sense of entitlement
Interpersonally oppressive behavior
No form of empathy
Resentment of others or a conviction that others are resentful of him or her
A display of egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudesANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER:
According to the DSM-5, there are four diagnostic criterion, of which Criterion A has seven sub-features.
A. Disregard for and violation of others rights since age 15, as indicated by one of the seven sub features:
Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest
Lying, deception, and manipulation, for profit tor self-amusement,
Impulsive behavior
Irritability and aggression, manifested as frequently assaults others, or engages in fighting
Blatantly disregards safety of self and others,
A pattern of irresponsibility and
Lack of remorse for actions (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)
The other diagnostic Criterion are:
B. The person is at least age 18,
C. Conduct disorder was present by history before age 15
D. and the antisocial behavior does not occur in the context of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)Thanks for that brilliant insight Witherspoon. You are invaluable!
In your professional opinion do you believe that Rob believes his own falsehoods and therefore, does this indicate delusions and is this typical of NPD/APD?
I know he is a fictional character but he has been written stupendously, its so believable.
No, I think he knows he’s lying-he is just so good at it. Rob uses several more primitive defense mechanisms such as Denial, Acting Out, and Projection to work through the trauma of his own childhood. He perceives himself to be the victim (as he was during his own childhood) and not the next generation of victimizer. He has rationalized his behavior to such an extent that when he lies he believes in the “rightness” of doing so (leading to him being so good at it), but he does know he’s lying, thus he’s not delusional. He’s just a very bad guy with the trappings of a good citizen.
By the way Witherspoon, you should read “The Pyscopath Test ” by Jon Ronson. It’s a science lite book that’s actually very funny about Paychopaths. It’s very British as well. There’s a great bit about a low level criminal who pretends to be crazy but ends up diagnosed as a psychopath and gets sent to Broadmoor. Apparently, denying you are a psychopath is a leading indicator that you are a psychopath! It’s a great book and I think you’d like it.
Witherspoon – has rob got any morals at all? Does he have a conscience to keep him awake at night? I guess he must have but its hard to tell.
I used to live with a narcissist. I got away, and was scarred but I like to think that somewhere, in the darkest night, he has a conscience and is cringing for all he put me and several other women through. It took me a while to recover mentally and even longer to recover financially.
I hope one day he learns. Maybe when he is a lonely old man and realises that no one loves him or even cares. I am not sure if he ever will and even after all that, I don’t wish loneliness and despair on anyone.
I don’t like Arsula, but I don’t think she is the one to blame, she is also a victim. I would rather see Wob being looked after by a very reluctant Bruciekins whilst Arsula wakes up, smells the coffee and gets clean away.
Caddi Nutnotime: Thank god you got out of that relationship!
Oh yes, I would love to see Arsula start to understand what she has been doing to Helen and what she herself has been subjected to. That would be an amazing story line!
Witherspoon: I get that most of the time, Rob believes he is a victim and that he is somehow right for behaving the way he does, in particular lying, but when he does things like telling Helen to kill herself or raping her, I don’t understand how he can justify this to himself, even with a warped sense of reality.
That’s where Rob’s additional (to his narcissism) sociopathy comes into play. A narcissist’s conscience is directed toward himself while a sociopath lacks a conscience. We’ve seen Rob rape, assault, lie, and blackmail without batting an eye. We also suspect him of cooking the books, tampering with property, and perhaps even murdering. And as he learned at the feet of his father, Rob sees women as “less than” who are easily controlled, exchanged or disposed of.
Regarding Arsula: Yes, she’s a victim of abuse, but also an agent of abuse – she was an agent of Rob’s abuse of Helen, if not a direct perpetrator of abuse. Her behavior needs understanding to help her but she does not have my sympathy.
Very interesting explanation Witherspoon. Someone in my family (who shall remain nameless, in order to protect those around her) was long ago diagnosed with Narcissistic personality disorder. I say “diagnosed” as it was the devil’s own job to figure it out. She refused to go to any kind of counselling. It was when her children (as adults) were all in counselling that the topic arose, and the conclusion was reached.
Even as an elderly woman, now, she is by turns charming and engaging, followed by utterly vile and verbally abusive. (Depending on how far she is getting her own way). I think the one thing I heard this woman say, that has stuck with me was “The Rules do not apply to me”. And she believes this. Down to her core, she believes that the world has wronged her, and she has done no harm at all. Listening to Rob reminded me so much of this woman. the outward charm, the inward tyranny.I sympathise Fiona, I have one in the family too. I don’t speak to him or have anything to do with him unless it’s in front of my grandmother. Its best for her if we all have the appearance of getting on because it upsets her so much if not. The worst thing about it is that while some of my family will grudgingly admit he is ‘damaged’ they still defend him and his actions. He’s such a great manipulator. So I end up feeling alone, isolated and if I wasn’t as clued up as I am I’m sure I would end up believing I was mad. I can’t go into details of what he’s done, but its bad.
That’s sort of the reason I wanted to ask the is there a cure question in the first place. Rob reminds me so much of this person its made it tough to listen over the last couple of years, but also its been a sort of vindication of my own feelings.
Ah Claire! How awful. The horrid thing about such people, is that on the outside, they can appear utterly charming, so that those who are damaged by them, feel as if THEY are deluded, or imagining things! Same thing with my relative, she’s done too many things, to too many people, and I don’t like to dwell, or mention. And, it’s never been any good warning others …I tried that once, and was told that I was unkind and nasty.
I was able to spot Rob’s abuse of Helen …actually of Jess, very early on, I think because I carry a little red warning light in my brain that triggers at certain things. I remember that some folk were insisting that Jess was not alright ..maybe slightly batty, and I kept thinking, “No, I think she’s being abused “.
Maybe, Witherspoon, there can be a cure, if the narcissist is prepared to face who they are? But, then, that sounds like an oxymoron to me, a narcissist seeing themselves for who they have become.
Maybe the best that can be done, is to try and alert others, support those who get abused in that way …be prepared to believe the Jess’s and the Helen’s of this world, and offer quiet bolstering to those who have been damaged, and try to ensure that in our parenting we don’t create a new generation of narcissists (the tough bit in all of this).
I worry for Henry down the road, but hope that he’s been taken away from Rob early enough. Of course, sometimes children of, go the other way, and become deeply empathetic and kind people.
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